Post Info TOPIC: Quota System: Beginning of the End for IITs, IIMs, AIIMS etc
Bharadwaj

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RE: Quota System: Beginning of the End for IITs, IIMs, AIIMS etc
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I want to make the following closing remarks:

I would indeed like to see a revolution in the delivery of education in India. My arguments have always been quota system of one kind or another existed and it is better to accept the reality and work to minise its impact. Anti-quota stir and it making a difference? It does for chattering classes. Islands of meritocracy existing today? It depends how you define it. I do not like others to twist the arguments about quota system. Do I hate it /did I hate it? Yes. Hated it when it was applied in departments of Manasagangothri and hated it again when it was 'covertly' carried out in the IITs. The latter helps to maintain healthy perception of entrance exams.

I have helped many students with real merit and who were hard done by by the indian education system. I will continue to do so.

I am not a lawyer. But I am not incorrect in saying that SC ( and BC?) reservations are mandated in certain schedule of Indian constitution? Once 'reservation'/'quota' is opened up , very difficult to stop it spreading in many directions. Hence accept it and work towards minimising its impact.

I suggest that one should look at the governing board structure of IITs and IISc. Unless you strenthen the backs of the members of the board, very little can be achieved. Very interesting to see that Directors of Technical Education (DTE) of the states concerned sit in the board. Who are these people? Each of them is a polital appointee. They are usually heads of a government engineering college or exceptionally
from a private engineering college in each state promoted to the position of DTEs. Also the industry is represented in the form of an industrialist and the central goverment picks this person carefully.

Appeal against decisions of the governing body or a department or any unit in the IITs? Does not work as the president of India is the Visitor and in whose name decisions are carried out. Hence I cited the case of Sateesh Dhavan Vs` RS Krishnan. The former was appointed as the Director of IISC- the insiders said a political appointment. Krishnan filed a writ in the Mysore high court. It was dismissed becuase the appointment was made on the name of the President of India.

Do I see quota systems in IIT/IIM/AIIms coming as stated? I do without doubt if it is a serious proposal.

Does India or do its constituent states govern themselves and politicians do not have say or sway? Certainly not.




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Capt. Anup Murthy

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My closing remarks:


Can one give up on India? Absolutely not. Do I see light at the end of the tunnel? yes, I do. Yes, there is reservation guaranteed in the constitution but thats OK, its been around for ages. Neither me nor anyone else asked about abolishing quotas, thats again a misunderstanding on some, because that ain't gonna happen.


Should we agree for an increase in quota overt or covert? No, absolutely not. Am I pessimistic about India and Indians? No. Do politicians really rule? Get real, they don't even know how people manage their lives on a day to day basis. Indians find ways and means to beat the system every day. Can politicians change? yes, with new blood and some time they will, to not change is to not evolve and evolution is guaranteed, it is in our genes, as humans we have nowhere to go except evolve. Should we take everything lying down? Not in my opinion.


Am I writing only about the IIT/IIM quota subject now, you bet I'm not. I am opposed to quotas in all spheres of life, i.e. increase in levels of quotas. I hope the youth don't go around believing that their destiny is doomed because they live in India. I want the youth to not be discouraged by anyone and to fight. Fight about everything you believe in. India has a future, believe it or sink or get off the boat!



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Bharadwaj

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I sent my comments and it as not appeared! Hence I am presenting hopefully a brief version.

Briefly:

1) the central and state goverments have their fingers on education pie.
The Indian constitution mandates 'reservation' or quotas for SC ( BC?). If quotasystem as suggested is a serious proposal. It will happen. I have no doubt. people can protest but there are large communities who will benefit. 'quota stirs' would in the long run will become ineefectual.

2) The IIT (IISC...) has a board structure with the President of India at its apex. The members of the boards, DTEs and Industrialist/splus independents can be manipulated as the former are government officials and the latter are carefully vetted.. All high level decisions in an IIT and even some departmental ones are carried out in the name of President of India. I mentined Sateesh Dhavan vs RS Krishnan , the former was appointed ( many said political influence)
as Director of IISC. the Mysore High Court dismissed Krishnan's writ.

3) There exist s 'covert quota system', albeit at a lower percentage level in each department. There are no whistle blowers for this as they stand no chance and the might of IIT/IISC will be on them. I am saying this will be absorbed in the new quota percentage or in worst case will be allowed to operate untouched to let' sleeping dogs lie undisturbed'

4) There is no goverment dept in any level state , central or local not touched by politics and politicians

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Bhamy V Shenoy

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While I started the quota topic and predicted the end of IITs, IIMs and AIIM, I was not trying to imply that IITSs are perfect. In any human system there is bound to be nepotism, corruption and partiality.

I have worked all over the world in the USA, severl European countries, Former Soviet Union countries and had esposure to students from all over the world. Yes no country is free of corruption and nepotism. Then why do I give the example of Mysore University and compare with IITs in the background of quota? Two reasons: one I know more about both these institutes better than I know most (well I also know equally about University of Houston where I studied and even was a guest lecturer till last year. But I did not want to relate to it since it is in a different cultural set up).

In fact IITs have many drawbacks and we the alumni discuss it freely. There is no fear of being being bodily harmed. It is not true at Mysore University. Let us not forget what happened to Dr. U. R. Ananthmurthy and to many others on that campus.

IITs are well known today not because of their superior faculty (it is better than any other Indian University), not becuase of any outstanding research (there is criticism against the kind of research IITs conduct), or because of any great constribution IITs have made to India's development (it may be relatively speaking more than other Universities, but considerably less in comparison to what was expected of them by the founding fathers) etc. It is only because of their ability to attract the best and brightest talents of India.

There is definietly no clandestine or implied quota but for the reservartion for SCs and STs. while selecting students. Even Narayana Murthy's son could not get admission there. It is a well known fact that the highest ranked Harvard University has an implied quota for the children of their well known and rich alumni. But it is not a significant amount. Those universities go out of their way to attract the best talents from all over the world. Therefore it is not a fair criticism to say that they also have quota.

Similarly to denigrate IITs because some of their faculty members or directors are appointed based on connection ( or is it caste based quota?). Quota for SCs and STs did not lower the standard of IITs. But when it goes beyond a certain tipping point like the one contemplated by the government, we need to stand up and point it out.

In this connection giving the example of Mysore University is apt. Some one who is familiar with Mysore University has stated that already more than 50% of the faculty are based on caste based quota and soon it will exceed 80%. Is this phenomenon beneficial to any caste? I would venture out that even the particular caste which is the beneficiaries today of such a quota system are the losers.

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Capt. Anup Murthy

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Forget my closing arguments, this ain't no case. Mr. Bharadwaj: Easy for you to say from faraway.


Your point No. 1: You say large communities will benefit. Thats bogus. Thats talking through the hat without knowing how many seats are at stake. Large communities, indeed. Like I said before, bridges will collapse, patients will die on the operating table and airplanes with fall out of the sky if they make it quota for employment as well, in the private sector. Large communities will be badly affected.


Your point No. 2: Isolated instance blown up.


Your point No. 3: If the chaps have any guts, they should blow the whistle. Thats their contribution to their country, they owe at least that much, otherwise, as I said, throw in the towel and jump ship. Conspiracy theories are good only for movies.


Your point No. 4: Thats true with many countries, even thoe that are light years ahead of us but is not relevant to anything on this forum.


Dr. Shenoy, your credentials are well known. When you make such statements that you have, it is from a deep understanding of the issue. I agree with your observations and I do believe the so called larger community that is supposed to benefit, may end up as not so. There areother ways of bringing up people, not this way and I strongly disagree with anyone who says it can't be done.



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bharadwaj

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These are definitely my final words on this topic.

Mr Murthy, you can rant and rave all year. If there is a serious proposal from your politicians for a ' quota top up' (which my Indian friends with legal background say could be done by simply 'elasticating' the basic 'reservation quota' that the constitution provides), it will happen sooner or later.

No need to be rude to those who disagree with you and who from their own experience point out facts ( not fiction) which may be unpalatable to some. My suggestion is to keep the eyes wide open and ears tuned to listen to others without burrying the whole head in the sand.

I have no need to get into discussion on this topic. I am not affected by the quota system or my children or friends' children or children of my adapted country. The elastic 'quota system is peculiar to India. You can fight to the bitter end and it will not change anything. That I am sure.

Hence we part with civility in tact. I would be interested to find out the situation at this time next year.

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Capt. Anup Murthy

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You talk about civility and at the same time use words like rave and rant, Mr. Bharadwaj. I don't need to learn from you or your adopted country, if thats the frozen wasteland next to the US that harbours Sikh terrorists. I think that if I am raving and ranting, I have the right to do so. India allows me to have this freedom. It is you, by fleeing to a safe haven as you call it has your head burried in sand (or snow) and cannot see the postive side of India. You have nothing but negative thoughts about India. I can see clearly, its not my head in the sand that I can't see anything else but sand!


I have several places around the World I live but I chose India to settle because thats where I can make a difference. If I were to be a self-centered chap, I'd have run away too, god knows that in my profession, I have lots more opportunities to go out and have in the past as well. 


I was straight to the point, shooting from the hip as we say in the US. You continue to make outlandish claims, lawyers who say that "elasticising" quota laws etc etc, no proof, just hearsay. Difference between your friends/you and me is that I say it as it is, and name names.


Dr. Shenoy and a few others have also named names. From your side all we get is a "conspiracy theory" that Mel Gibson would love, no proof, no names, all in the game of hiding like some agency in India will come and lock them up because their names were revealed on a blog! Get real, this is not the movies. Its your word against other forum contributors here and it is clear who is the negative doomsday prophet in this argument.


This is not the last word from me. If you can't make a difference to India, Mysore, our way of life, whats your business making comments? You are not part of the democratic set up here are you? Making no contribution and making statements from thousands of miles away! India has got a good future, there are people here trying to make a difference. By your negative comments, don't try to demean their efforts.  You don't sit up their in your high pulpit and preach, that your "adopted" country is better and India sucks, our politicians are terrible, India has no future, you don't see anything happening and so on. Get your own blog to preach as I have done.



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Anonymous

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RE: Quota System: Beginning of the End for IITs, IIMs, AIIMS etc
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hello sir, even m trying to make a fight against quota system. for that i made a group in facebook named " Fight Against quota System" i hope we can do, please come and supprt me over there. we will make a fight for our country. now its time to end this and make a new start.



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